Geoff wrote:
> "rev.goetz" <jimgoetz
...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
news:1142951209.105720.125450@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> >I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:
> > Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?
> > Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
> > answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?
> I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
> If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
> have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.
Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.
Dear Rev. Goetz,
Thank you for contacting Answers in Genesis. I apologize that it has
taken me so long to respond as we have been quite busy. I'm glad
that you asked the question about octopuses and squid. Attached is an
article about what animals can be considered "living" and
"nonliving" based on a biblical definition. Octopuses and even
giant squid could be considered "nonliving" creatures and the
article will explain why.
Considering death was not introduced until Adam sinned there would have
been no such thing as an "accidental death". I understand that it
is hard to imagine such a world, but we need to remember that we live
in a world completely changed by death, sin and suffering. We see
death all the time, it is incredibly hard (if not impossible) to
imagine a world without any death, especially since that is something
we have never experienced. Another thing we have to remember is
God's sustaining power. Before sin, God had created everything
'very good'. However, once sin entered the world He no longer
sustained creation in its perfect state. He still sustains His
creation (Col. 1:17), but no longer sustains it in perfect condition.
An example of God's sustaining power is when the Israelites were
wandering through the wilderness for forty years their "clothing did
not wear out and their feet did not swell" (Deut. 8:4; 29:5).
God's sustaining power explains why there were no "accidental
deaths" before the fall. So as part of the curse God withdrew some
of His sustaining power, hence then allowing death to enter His
creation.
Which animals in the sea are considered "living" [nephesh chayyah]
biblically?
By today's scientific definition, squid, octopuses and other
invertebrate sea creatures (mollusks, cephalopods, crustaceans, etc.)
are considered living creatures. But are they biblically defined as
"living creatures"? We can shed some light on this subject and
possibly define "living" sea creatures and "nonliving" sea
creatures based on Scripture.
Are there any "living creatures" in the sea?
>From Genesis 1:20-22, we find there were indeed living creatures in the
sea. The term for living creature is nephesh chay(yah):
02416 yx chay
Alive, live living, raw (flesh)
05315. vpn nephesh
Soul, life, living being, creature
These are used in Genesis 1:20-22 so we should expect to find living
creatures in the sea that can die or be killed.
>From a cursory glance at the Scriptures, we find that fish (Exodus
7:21) and large sea creatures like leviathan can die (Isaiah 27:1),
hence alive.
Defining life closely
There are two key components to defining "life" by the Bible.
Obviously, the first is nephesh chayyah, and is mimicked with land
animals as well as man. However with man it is often translated as
living soul, as opposed to creature. This is still different from being
made in the image of God which makes man distinctly different from
animals.
The next factor is revealed in Genesis 9.
Genesis 9:3-4
"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to
you, as I gave the green plant. "Only you shall not eat flesh with its
life, that is, its blood.
This verse indicates that life is in the blood. This is confirmed in
Leviticus and Deuteronomy as well:
Leviticus 17:13-14
"Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell
among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten,
he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; "for it is the life
of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the
children of Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for
the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut
off.'
Deuteronomy 12:23
"Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you
shall not eat the life with the flesh.
The Hebrew word for red blood is 01818. Md dam dawm. It is a variation
of the Hebrew word Adam which means "man" or "red". This goes
back to God breathing life into the man He created from dust in Genesis
1 and 2. God breathed life (blood) into Adam and he appeared with the
reddish color in the face due to the blood - hence the name
"Adam" for the first man.
0119. Mda 'adam aw-dam'; to show blood (in the face), i.e. flush or
turn rosy:- be (dyed, made) red (ruddy).
Why is this significant?
We know that a creature that is considered alive contains blood. Fish
are considered living creatures (nephesh chayyâh) according to the
Bible. But octopuses and squid also have a type of blood; couldn't
they be considered "living creatures" as well, like fish?
Fish have red blood which is what makes them a "living creature".
However, octopuses and squid (and other such sea creatures, or
invertebrates) have blue blood. This may be significant. What makes the
blood red or blue?
A human's (or animal's) blood needs to be able to carry oxygen to
the different parts of the body. This is done by red blood cells in
humans and animals that contain hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is a red pigment
contained in the red blood cells which is why our blood is red.
Hemoglobin is essential for the life of an animal since it has heme
which contain iron ions. The iron in each heme group binds to and
transports oxygen.1 It is also interesting to note that heme (or haem)
comes from the Latin-Greek root for "blood". And in the Greek text
of the New Testament the Greek word for "blood" is aima haima
hah'-ee-mah.
Octopuses and most invertebrate creatures like most mollusks, and some
arthropods, have blood that contains hemocyanins that are used to carry
oxygen. These hemocyanins are metalloproteins that have a similar
function to hemoglobin in that they carry oxygen through the blood. But
instead of containing iron, like the hemoglobin, hemocyanin contains
two copper atoms that reversibly bind a single oxygen molecule. When
the copper atoms are not carrying oxygen they are colorless, however
when the copper is carrying oxygen it becomes blue. Also, the
hemocyanin is dissolved in the plasma instead of being bound in red
blood cells, like hemoglobin. So when these copper atoms in the
hemocyanin carry oxygen it gives the blood of invertebrates its blue
color.2,3
Other oxygen binding proteins in the blood of invertebrates include
hemerythrin and pinnaglobin. Hemerythrin contains iron in a non-heme
protein and appears pink/violet when oxygenated and clear when not.
Pinnaglobin is a manganese based porphyrin protein that appears brown.
Let's go back to Genesis 1
Let's go back to the creation of sea creatures in Genesis 1 and look
at it closely. I'm including some of the Hebrew words in the passages
without translation:
Genesis 1:20-21
Then God said, "Let the waters teem (08318 Urv sherets)( 02416 yx
chay)( 05315. vpn nephesh), and let birds fly above the earth in the
open expanse of the heavens." God created the great sea monsters and
every (02416 yx chay)( 05315. vpn nephesh)( 07430. smr ramas), with
which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after
its kind; and God saw that it was good.
08318 Urv sherets
Teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers, insects, animals, small
reptiles, quadrupeds
02416 yx chay
Alive, live living, raw (flesh)
05315. vpn nephesh
Soul, life, living being, creature
07430. smr ramas
Creep, move teem, swarm,
Translations of these verses sometimes read: "living creatures that
move" or "living and moving creatures". The translation that
makes more sense says "living and moving creatures" as it indicates
there are living and non living creatures in the sea. Perhaps a more
appropriate translation (that would also be easier to understand) could
read:
And God said, "Let the waters teem with swarming things and living
creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the
heavens." So God created the great sea monsters and every living and
moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and
every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Further support for this comes from Leviticus 11:10.
Leviticus 11:10
"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the
rivers, of all that move <08318> (sherets-swarming things) in the
waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall
be] an abomination unto you."
Arthur Jones even concluded in the CRSQ in 1973 that invertebrates were
not life because they didn't contain flesh (which is what blood
supplies the life to)4:
"All the animals taken on the Ark are described as basar,
"flesh." This term (when used of
whole living animals rather than simply the animals body) is never used
of invertebrate animals."
Conclusion
Many scientists make the distinction that vertebrates have hemoglobin,
hence red blood, and invertebrates contain other oxygen transporting
proteins, like hemocyanins, and do not have red blood. As far as
we've researched at this time, all vertebrates have hemoglobin and
invertebrates do not, though there may be exceptions we are not aware
of.
So, animals that contain hemoglobin (vertebrates) and therefore have
red blood can be considered "living" and animals that contain
hemocyanin, or other proteins (invertebrates) and therefore have blue
(pink/violet or brown) blood can be considered "nonliving". This is
further supported by Scripture since the Hebrew for "blood" (dawm)
is derived from the Hebrew for "red" (aw-dam). And with Genesis
1:20-22 and Leviticus 11:10, there is a distinction between
"living" creatures and "swarming/moving" creatures that teem in
the waters. So the logical conclusion can be made that a "living"
creature is one that contains red blood.
References
1 Mader, Sylvia S. Chapter 13 Cardiovascular System. Inquiry into Life:
10th Edition. McGraw-Hill, New York 2003: p.250.
2 James R. Redmond (dept. of Zoology, UCLA); "The Respiratory Function
of Hemocyanin in Crustacea", Journal of Cellular and Comparative
Physiology 46 (October 1955):209-242. Reprinted in Bradley T. Sheer,
ed.; Comparative Physiology: A Book of Readings; (Wm. C. Brown Company
Publishers, Dubuque, Iowa; 1968), pp. 162-194.
3 P. J. Mill (Dr., Lecturer in Zoology, The University of Leeds);
Respiration in the Invertebrates; (Macmillan, St, Martins' Press, N.
Y.; 1972).
4 Arthur J. Jones; How many animals on the Ark?; Creation Research
Society Quarterly; Volume 10; September 1973; Page 103